Gasp! A Fiat/Jeep with electrical issues!

"Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo" (akioohtori) 01/18/2020 at 23:31 • Filed to: Brave little toaster

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Yesterday was exciting! The plan was to drive to OKC (neighboring city, about 1.5 hours away) to hang with some friends and get very, very drunk, grab a hotel and head home in the morning.

That did happen, but first George’s Renegade broke down.

Yes, the newest car in our fleet broke down.

On the highway.

I was packing when I get a mildly panicked phone call that the Jeep had broken down on the highway. He’d managed to get it to an offramp, but was now blocking a lane and needed assistance.

Cool. Cool. Cool.

The way George describes it, the car just lost power. It felt like someone had unplugged the throttle. Unfortunately that isn’t an unusual feeling in that car, so he wasted precious moment and, more importantly, MPHs before putting it in neutral and trying to get off the highway, so while he did make it to an exit, he didn’t make it very far.

Of course I had, just four hours previous, put the Land Rover in storage so any hopes of flat towing him out of the situation was out. I grabbed a socket set and a work light and hit the road to see how I could help.

After initially going to the wrong intersection I show up and yup... Thar be a broken Fiat.

He tried starting it but to no avail. The engine sounded either like it was missing or like it was out of gas. Hard to tell, tbh. Allegedly he had 1/8th of a tank when it cut out, but with the Zippo Jeep decided would be a reasonably sized tank on that car it 1/8 of a tank is like... 1.5 gallons. Not a large margin of error.

As he’d had some battery troubles a couple months ago we went ahead and tried jumping it. This was somewhat ironic given that a thing I frequently shout at clouds about is people who break down and think jumper cables will fix it... somehow. Look... if the car was running and the alternator was working, you shouldn’t be able to have a problem for which jumping the car is going to be the solution.

But, again, we tried anyway.

Unfortunately motorists in 2020 being what they are, at this point the Jeep was causing quite a few traffic problems. Even though it was clearly broken down with its hazards on, people were still pulling up behind him and getting confused when he didn’t move. We were going to try pushing the car through the intersection and into a closed lane just beyond, but it was at this point the Jeep became even more Italian. The shift lock wouldn’t let him get into neutral. Eventually he got it worked out through some arcane ritual involving shutting doors and stuff, but then the electric parking brake wouldn’t release no matter what he did.

Shit.

George called AAA. I called the cops.

Lucking TPD (Tulsa Police) showed up quick and were pretty jovial about the whole thing. They did get pretty testy about the people that started queuing up BEHIND THE COP CAR WITH ALL ITS LIGHTS ON, because, again, people have no situational awareness.

Even better, with my car parked at the intersection and his also there, we managed to cause the light to go into some sort of failsafe default where it just didn’t turn the light green for the on-ramp. The cops started directing traffic right as another motorist broke down in the adjacent intersection, because apparently we’re now in the Bermuda triangle. Two cars and a traffic light down, what else could go wrong?

Well... not a ton more.

Someone almost hit one of the cops directing traffic. That was fun.

A Domino’s delivery driver just fucking... went, even with the officer in a high visibility vest, shining his flashlight telling him to stop. The cop got out of the way at the last second, but we actually thought he got clipped for a second.

After that the cops were really agitated and started shouting at people, which is.... somewhat understandable. That was fun too...

Then a different Domino’s delivery driver blew through a red light while the cops were directing him to stop . No hesitation, no braking, just going .

Which is odd because this hurry to get pizzas places is not what I’ve come to expect from Domino’s delivery...

ANYWAY! Luckily it was around this time everything started to resolve. The owner of the other broken down truck returned with gas for his car, which is apparently what it needed, the tow truck showed up, and the city utility guys showed up to take a look at the light. As we tried to load up the Jeep onto the flatbed. the automotive gods smiled on us and the Jeep not only let itself be shifted into neutral, but also allowed the parking brake to be released!

Praise be to Jibbers!

At this point it was 7:30, so we’d been trying to call the dealer for the last 15 minutes to let them know we’d be coming in with a broken Jeep. Even though they didn’t close until 8, apparently picking up the phone wasn’t a priority. Presumably without prior warning they’d be locked and blocked by the time we got there so we might be dropping it on the street and leaving it there until Monday.

Shit.

We decided to have the Jeep towed to my Volvo shop instead. I knew we could get into their lot and they’re close to the Jeep dealer and a couple other independent shops I like. I texted the owners and let them know we’d be incoming and with the Jeep on the tow truck went home to grab more tools and some fresh gas.

The cops, on the other hand, left the light to the city guys and were on their way to Domino’s to make it rain tickets on delivery drivers.

After the Jeep got unloaded put 5 gallons of gas in and hooked the now very dead Jeep battery up to my rental. After letting it charge for a bit we tried starting it...

And of course it started right up without a care in the world.

I mean, it sounded like shit but the 2.4L in that car always sounds like shit, so it hard to tell if it sounds more like shit than usual.

Not wanting to risk driving back, we left the car there and headed to OKC, only three hours later than we’d meant to.

The Next Day

Drunkenness completed and breakfast acquired, we headed back to Tulsa.

The plan today was to grab a new battery, throw that in, and take surface streets home. Then I might suggest taking off the engine cover and seeing if hosing it down causes a stall under controlled conditions. Not the best plan, but it is the plan we had.

We picked up the battery, George deciding to splurge and buy a yellow top, and headed to the Volvo shop. There, for grins, he tried starting the Renegade.

And of course it started right up.

Battery was a little sad and the engine was at high idle because of that, but otherwise OK.

Since the Jeep battery swap is not straightforward, we decided to risk driving it back, which was thankfully uneventful. The only real thing of note was it was running a little lumpy at idle. To me it sounded like maybe it was missing a bit?

On a whim, he pulled the codes and, sure enough, it had a pre-code for cylinder #1 misfire.

We pulled the coil pack and didn’t really see anything of note, but it did smell... burnt. For better or worse there was no sign of water having been around the coils either.

We pulled the plug and it looked... OK. A little ashy and it had a brown ring around it on the outside that I’d never seen before. Also the gap seemed... big. We pulled some of the other plugs and they looked less ashy, but all had that brown ring and an inconsistent gap.

A little googling and as it turns out the 2.4 Multiair is sort of known for this. The 100,000 mile spark plugs can last as little as 20,000 miles. What is worse is the brown ring is the compression seal failing, which I didn’t even know was an option, and the burnt smell on the coil boot is combustion gasses from the engine getting out. It can get so bad it fouls the coils necessitating replacement.

All of which is happening up to 80,000 miles before the spark plugs are supposed to be changed.

Furthermore people have found just random plug gaps and even cross-threaded plugs from the factory.

Terrific.

Ok, so new spark plugs it is and hope the coils are OK.

While we wait on parts, George went ahead and put in the new battery. I gotta say... that was a lot of dicking around to remove a battery. Many screws, bolts, retaining straps, clips, etc...

Then we went to dinner and picked up the plugs. I checked the gaps and they were all about 0.042" with the spec being 0.047" so.... good enough. I also measured the old ones and they ranged from 0.030" to 0.061".

From the factory.

Heh.

We winged in the new plugs and took the car for a spin.

It was.... better? Ish?

But it will still occasionally start to misfire at idle. Didn’t seem to have any rhyme or reason as to when it starts though.

So what do we think happened?

The initial theory is he ran out of gas and the weak battery then caused all sorts of other issues after sitting with the hazards and headlight on. Still, with 1/8 of a tank showing on the gauge that seems... hard to swallow.

Another theory was driving through standing water (of which there was a lot) at highway speed got water somewhere it shouldn’t be (my theory was coil packs) and caused... issues. This is slightly supported by a flashing check engine light when he was trying to start. That said, we’ve done water in the Jeep before...

Quite a few times, in fact.

But the coils being dusty and showing no signs of ingress also debunks that theory.

Next Steps

After the investigation we’re thinking.... bad gas, bad coil pack, and bad fuel pump in that order.

So.... next steps are to get it a full tank of gas with some de-waterer and see how that goes. If we can get the misfire code to come back we’ll try moving the coils around to see if we can isolate it to a single coil. Or just wing in a full set as they’re not super expensive.

I’ll update as I have more info.

Think good thoughts for the Brave Little Toaster.

Update Here:

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Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/18/2020 at 23:46

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This is exactly how you write a post about a problem. Fantastic writing, wild story telling, and great problem solving. I felt like I lived it.

I hope you figure it out, though it should all be under warranty with only 20k right?

I laughed out loud at this. “ The engine sounded either like it was missing or like it was out of gas.” Those are two very different things, one wildly more probable than the other.

Just Jeepin' > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/18/2020 at 23:46

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And here I was just shopping Renegades on CarMax tonight...

I mean, c’mon, this adorable one has manual + 4WD and not the 2.4, so it’s cool, right? It’s orange! How cool is orange?!

https://www.carmax.com/car/18369453

Anyway, that does sound like quite the train wreck. Glad there were no actual wrecks. I used to keep a safety coat in my Jeep all winter long, but with all the security problems I’ve had I haven’t been...but if the police can’t keep people from being idiots, a safety coat won’t either.

Chariotoflove > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 01/18/2020 at 23:58

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Yeah, but you have to write chapters so I can have bathroom breaks and, you know, maybe a nap. 

Variance > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/19/2020 at 00:10

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This is actually why I find it pretty interesting to sometimes do a deep-dive into what problems cars labelled as “unreliable” actually have. You can tell a lot about what a car’s ownership experience will actually be like, depending on if the issue seems to be a engineering/design issue, or a supplier quality issue.

I think half the reason that Toyota s have as strong of a quality for reputation as they do is because they STRONGLY control their suppliers, which prevents these kinds of issues with externally-designed parts.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/19/2020 at 00:12

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the .062" could be from the plug wearing down. the .031 maybe from a 1.4?

Also depending on brand/style I see .04-.047 gap

facw > Just Jeepin' 01/19/2020 at 00:23

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And look at that towing !

smobgirl > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/19/2020 at 00:28

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I have no idea of anything about that (or any) Jeep, but the recommended spark plug replacement interval for the Abarth is something like 32k miles. Also it’s actually pretty difficult to get my battery cables to connect properly...as in, two different shops messed around with my car and removed and reinstalled the same battery  when it had some intermittent start issues, and it took a third party to catch the fact that it was actually the battery installation the whole time.

duplico > Just Jeepin' 01/19/2020 at 00:50

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Hey, George here, the one with the sad toaster. Buy that orange Renegade , or I will.

It has the lower tier of infotainment, and the base (not automatic) climate control. But it has that AWESOME light gray-and-orange cloth interior, which looks way better in person than in those photos, and I wish mine had it instead of black leather . Plus it has the 16" wheels, which means you have way more options for tires than my Trailhawk has.

Future Heap Owner > Just Jeepin' 01/19/2020 at 01:34

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Orange is the  coolest. It is known.

zrc > Just Jeepin' 01/19/2020 at 02:24

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Do it. Wife has a lime green. We love it. It's so peppy and just the happiest little thing. Yes, the 2.4 sounds like shit, but damn if it isn't smooth. Just check your fluids first. Ours came with 3-4 quarts of oil missing. Luckily no damage done(except a very angry phone call to the dealer). Also don't hit anything if you have the front braking sensor. Ours was in the shop for a month while we waited for someone from Milan to come recalibrate it...

Svend > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/19/2020 at 04:28

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FIAT

Fix

It

Again

Tomorrow.

Only kidding, I hope you get it sorted. 

NKato > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/19/2020 at 06:43

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Tulsa PD puts up with so much shit, I'm surprised none of them have gone postal yet.

Just Jeepin' > duplico 01/19/2020 at 06:45

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Hell, I thought the interior looked awesome in the photos. I’d love to see it in person.

Sadly there’s no practical way for it to be mine any time soon, so have at it. 

Captain of the Enterprise > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/19/2020 at 07:02

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Sorry about the problems but a great post! Keep us updated. I hope it gets resolved soon!

CHKOIL > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/19/2020 at 10:33

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Have you checked the oil? I know it sounds a little crazy for oil to cause this but hear me out. I work as a service adviser in a Jeep dealership and I see Renegades (or anything with a 2.4 really) come in all the time with owners claiming they are stalling out randomly and sometimes won’t start up again for several minutes . Every time this happens the engines are critically low on oil. The 2.4l multiair engine does burn a small amount of oil by design , however the piston rings are notoriously bad from the factory and frequently fail causing excessive leak down and oil consumption as a result. This is so bad that we’ve seen 1.5 qt of oil consumption is 1000 miles in some cases. When the oil gets too low (below 2 qt) the sump can not always reach the oil in the pan which causes the VVT actuators to loose oil pressure and stalls out the engine. There is no recognized fix for this. FCA has released no bulletins at all except for guideline on oil consumption limits: not more than 1 qt every 2000 miles.

Our solution? If the customer is still under powertrain warranty we have them visit every 1000 miles for an oil consumption test in which we see how much oil it takes to return to the proper level. After three visits if the average consumption rate is greater than FCA spec we perform a leak down test (which always fails if it’s gone this far) then replace the engine. As of right now we’ve replaced over a dozen engines in the past year and we haven’t had a single warranty claim get charged back to us.

TL;DR: Check your oil level, if it’s super low you’ll probably need a new engine.

Urambo Tauro > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/19/2020 at 10:44

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The shift lock wouldn’t let him get into neutral... then the electric parking brake wouldn’t release no matter what he did.

“S mart” features like these really grind my gears.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > CHKOIL 01/19/2020 at 11:22

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Oh hey... that is super interesting!  I knew about the engine oil vvt thing (fucking stupid) but I didn’t realize that engine was known for eating piston rings.  We’ll check, thanks!

4kc > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 01/19/2020 at 14:31

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explains his awful gas milage on ya’lls last trip at least

duplico > CHKOIL 01/19/2020 at 17:05

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Good thinking! Checked the oil level this morning, and it was good.

CHKOIL > duplico 01/19/2020 at 17:11

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Good to hear, I would still keep a close eye on it throughout the warranty period. You really never know when the rings on these will go but if they do they’ll usually go within the first 40-50K. Good luck with the B rave L ittle T oaster!

i86hotdogs > Just Jeepin' 01/21/2020 at 12:38

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Please buy it. My Manual Renny was so much fun to zip around in. Drop the muffler and resonator and it makes abarth sounds too.

Just Jeepin' > i86hotdogs 01/21/2020 at 13:03

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Probably not, finances are a disaster right now, but it’s undeniably tempting. 

Rufant > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 02/11/2020 at 02:33

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Great story writing as usual. Thumbs up.

A good dyno workshop will be able to tell you if you are getting blowby (compression leaking) under load. A leak down test will give you a static indication but the dyno test is the best.

Not a ringing endorsement of FCA products by any measure. Shame the Disco wasn't around to save the day.